Curse

Xenomortis · Jul 15, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

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Originally Posted by manitoba1073

Yes the combination between the combo of skills and the Area itself is what the problem is. You screw over the skill and the problems still remain.

You screw over the skill and the combination is dead. If combination death is the aim, screwing over Shadow Form is the most logical thing as it would only affect SF builds and not any other build utilising Deadly Paradox or Glyph of Swiftness.

Shadow Form has been tuned so it can be maintained with these skills (or consumables) - that was what A-Net aimed for.
The skill is overpowered because it can be maintained, period.*

*Well, technically it's because it provides near maintainable invulnerability.

Fixing the area is quite difficult and impractical.
A key issue is the fact it's AI we're dealing with and is hence, quite predictable and stupid. That will never change.

Arkantos · Jul 15, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

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It is a speed RUN NOT SPEED CLEAR DAMMIT. USE UR BRAINS.

I don't care what YOU call it. The community calls it a SPEED CLEAR. UW SPEED CLEAR. FoW SPEED CLEAR. When you're arguing with the community, the least you could do is know the terms.

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Here we are back to you thinking its a single skill when its not. As I said fraking earlier then the case of the warrior. It is the single class that can solo the whole game or have you forgotten you own posts.

Now on the speed runs, Yes they are fast and yes they do need to be slowed down, guess what the mechanics are there in game alrdy for it. Just as you need to kill the graspings in the first chamber to open the door, That such mechanic can be added to other sections of the UW requiring you to kill certain creatures to open gates in the UW. Guess what that is also adding content.
Thus would end any kind of speed runs.

Running half a race taking a short cut is not finishing the whole race.

As Avarre said, the farms are balanced by the speed of the runs. I don't know why you're even comparing the two.

Yes, ANet can switch the mechanics around to prevent speed clears. That's still not fixing shadow form. It's not only overpowered because it does speed clears the fastest, but because it makes you invincible. What part of that do you not understand? Fixing speed clears is one thing, fixing shadow form is another.

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And yet they are not doing it under 30 mins. More overstating yet again. Whats next 15 mins gonna be your claims.

And its not just 3 damn skills that it takes to do it.

I'm not talking about the duo, I'm talking about the full speed clear, which can do a speed clear in 9 minutes.

And wow, even if I was talking about the duo, you're arguing that I was off by 3 minutes, and comparing that to being off by 18 minutes. Are you running out of arguments, now?

And yet again, you are right, manitoba! It doesn't take 3 skills to be invincible. It takes 2 and a consumable! Shit, looks like you won that argument.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

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Originally Posted by UnChosen

As for the people saying that a game shouldn't have its difficulty curve adjusted...I hate to break it to you, but PRETTY MUCH EVERY SINGLE ONLINE RPG does it.

Except they do it either better or right.

In Diablo 2 you get better loots...but you're also advancing into more difficult areas. So when you step into the next chapter and go "hey look I have awesome weapons and stuff now!" the monsters say "oh hey SO DO WE!" and you're like "aw" and get 3 shotted.

Same thing goes for WoW. Until the next expansion is released, *all players* have to go through the gear and raid progression in the proper order. The only reason you see the pre-expansion raids and instances stay the same is because Blizzard doesn't care about them anymore. It's not to "appease the nubs", it's to "save us some time and money".

As for Guild Wars? Well it's similar to the D2 situation, except the bad guys *don't* get better stuff - yet we do. Our title ranks go up, we use more consumables, we bring more PvE skills, etc. In general the game becomes, as I said earlier, simply a light show.

Yes, many and most players are not going to be "good". This is fine. What's not fine is catering the entirety of the game to that, including all difficulty settings and likewise. That's a bad game. A good game pleases both ends of the spectrum, and GW doesn't do this.

"But you can play without PvE skills and stuff", well that just further proves the point that it's way too simplistic. And besides, players shouldn't feel the need to gimp themselves for a challenge. Of course they will reach a peak we they're just good at everything in the game, but the idea is that that should take awhile and that ANet shouldn't make the travel time to that peak five hundred times faster.

Lopezus · Jul 15, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

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As for Guild Wars? Well it's similar to the D2 situation, except the bad guys *don't* get better stuff - yet we do. Our title ranks go up, we use more consumables, we bring more PvE skills, etc. In general the game becomes, as I said earlier, simply a light show.
Yes, many and most players are not going to be "good". This is fine. What's not fine is catering the entirety of the game to that, including all difficulty settings and likewise. That's a bad game. A good game pleases both ends of the spectrum, and GW doesn't do this

Maybe it is a light show but it is still being played, of course there is certain and popular point of view like: people not skilled enough shouldn't have acces to many of content of a four year old game, if they can't get better thay should stop playing, and in fact with there incapability of getting better they shouln't buy this game in the first place, form that perspective these are valid points but from my point of view there are not making any sense. Evereone to their own opinion though.
Ps. So with removing SF and other measn of fast clearing will we see plenty of balanced HM UW runs ? Of course we won't, i don't belive that less people playing is no mean good for the game.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

Maybe it is a light show but it is still being played, of course there is certain and popular point of view like: people not skilled enough shouldn't have acces to many of content of a four year old game, if they can't get better thay should stop playing, and in fact with there incapability of getting better they shouln't buy this game in the first place...

This paragraph is difficult to read, but from what I can gather you're interpreting what I'm advocating for as: "if you're not a good player and if you're not gonna get better then don't buy this game."

...Which couldn't be further from what I had actually said.

Inexperienced players who just want to dick around in the easiest setting or areas should be able to do that - but they should not be able to dick around in the most difficult settings. The latter is what we have now. Instead of appeasing to those who want to think and those who don't, GW only appeals to the latter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Ps. So with removing SF and other measn of fast clearing will we see plenty of balanced HM UW runs ? Of course we won't, i don't belive that less people playing is no mean good for the game.

Of course we won't see more people running balanced HM UW runs. These people who are SF'ing aren't in UW to play through it, they're just there to farm it. They're not there to play through it and enjoy the content, they're there to profit from it. They are farmers. What they're going to do instead is look for the next hottest farm spot.

The second sentence is an inevitability since all the changes making GW easier have already gotten many people to stop playing.

zwei2stein · Jul 15, 2009, 07:44 AM // 07:44

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Same thing goes for WoW. Until the next expansion is released, *all players* have to go through the gear and raid progression in the proper order. The only reason you see the pre-expansion raids and instances stay the same is because Blizzard doesn't care about them anymore. It's not to "appease the nubs", it's to "save us some time and money".

Actually, blizzard took steps againt "nubs" getiing easy rewards but only where it mattered.

Points of case:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Black_Qiraji_Resonating_Crystal
http://www.wowwiki.com/Amani_War_Bear
http://www.wowwiki.com/Atiesh,_Great...f_the_Guardian

But there is not point in preventing people to see older content easy mode: non-raiding people can just join randomway at max level and go have some fun, there are no rewards that matter anymore (there are better green quest rewards items than old epics, so they can as well let people rampage there and experience content that took quite a few resources to create ... a way to let 95% enjoy what 5% were supposed to enjoy) to loud part of community.

But as you said, its only so because there is new content that will matter more and which can not be easymoded as long at it is fresh enough.

---

In GW, equivalent would be to allow people rampage through UW, but turn off ecto drops, completition chest and statue if they use some "unbeatableway".

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

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Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Actually, blizzard took steps againt "nubs" getiing easy rewards but only where it mattered.

Points of case:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Black_Qiraji_Resonating_Crystal
http://www.wowwiki.com/Amani_War_Bear
http://www.wowwiki.com/Atiesh,_Great...f_the_Guardian

But there is not point in preventing people to see older content easy mode: non-raiding people can just join randomway at max level and go have some fun, there are no rewards that matter anymore (there are better green quest rewards items than old epics, so they can as well let people rampage there and experience content that took quite a few resources to create ... a way to let 95% enjoy what 5% were supposed to enjoy) to loud part of community.

But as you said, its only so because there is new content that will matter more and which can not be easymoded as long at it is fresh enough.

---

In GW, equivalent would be to allow people rampage through UW, but turn off ecto drops, completition chest and statue if they use some "unbeatableway".

What WoW had a lot of trouble with in the past is making things more accessible. This is a bit better in Wrath, only near the beginning of its release was endgame content really easy. HM's are making things a bit better in this case, appeasing much more to both ends of the spectrum.

I too agree with allowing players to just mess around and see the content, but only with limitations.

Lopezus · Jul 15, 2009, 07:52 AM // 07:52

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Inexperienced players who just want to dick around in the easiest setting or areas should be able to do that - but they should not be able to dick around in the most difficult settings

No one is going to stay in easest setting for four years, period. Either they leave - no good for game, or they get better and transit to harder content - obviously that is not hapaning, or that need help in order to keep them playing - imo adding optional band-aids like pve skills or cons is quite reasonable option, certainly better then breaking the game with removing level ,armour or weapon caps.

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Of course we won't see more people running balanced HM UW runs. These people who are SF'ing aren't in UW to play through it, they're just there to farm it. They're not there to play through it and enjoy the content, they're there to profit from it. They are farmers. What they're going to do instead is look for the next hottest farm spot.

Farmers or not , it does not matter, game is designed to be played, what good comes from ceasing certain areas of againg game from beaing played is beyond me.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2009, 08:10 AM // 08:10

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Originally Posted by Lopezus

No one is going to stay in easest setting for four years, period. Either they leave - no good for game, or they get better and transit to harder content - obviously that is not hapaning, or that need help in order to keep them playing - imo adding optional band-aids like pve skills or cons is quite reasonable option, certainly better then breaking the game with removing level ,armour or weapon caps.

If no one's going to stay in the easiest setting for four years, then why make the entire game the easiest setting?

Not every player sees themselves being "locked out" due to skill as bad. Some players understand that they're not so good and are content with playing in the "nub" areas.

Then there are some players that understand they're not good and want to get better - and they will improve themselves. They want to see that high-end content and actually work towards that and see pay-off. It was awesome seeing these kinds of players in WoW; it was pretty amazing to see players you've helped since they were at lvl 1 fighting alongside you against Illidan.

The point of "locking out" players who are inexperienced is for longevity. Not everyone is going to qq if they can't vanquish the UW in HM because they're not that good. I agreed with Zwei in that players should be able to "mess around" in those elite areas provided it doesn't get the same recognition from the devs as completing it in HM with build, skill, and coordination.

UnChosen · Jul 15, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If no one's going to stay in the easiest setting for four years, then why make the entire game the easiest setting?

Not every player sees themselves being "locked out" due to skill as bad. Some players understand that they're not so good and are content with playing in the "nub" areas.

Then there are some players that understand they're not good and want to get better - and they will improve themselves. They want to see that high-end content and actually work towards that and see pay-off. It was awesome seeing these kinds of players in WoW; it was pretty amazing to see players you've helped since they were at lvl 1 fighting alongside you against Illidan.

The point of "locking out" players who are inexperienced is for longevity. Not everyone is going to qq if they can't vanquish the UW in HM because they're not that good. I agreed with Zwei in that players should be able to "mess around" in those elite areas provided it doesn't get the same recognition from the devs as completing it in HM with build, skill, and coordination.

I agree there are certain area of the game that should be off limit. Underworld and FoW IMO should remain elite. What I don't agree with is locking pugs out of eotn dungeons and realm of torment or dzagonur bastion and all the non elite areas (and even as early as vizunah square HM)...which is what the whole "bash every skill that stands out" philosophy is going to do. If they just adjust UW so that speed clear cannot be done there would be no complaint from me.

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

That's why I've been saying - for the longest time, both in this thread and others - that they should tone down the areas in Normal mode a bit in addition to balancing all these overpowered facets. The "OP stuffs" wouldn't be required if the areas weren't a pain in the ass for your average player. I also feel that PvE in general needs a whole reworking to make pugging less stressful, but mostly for another thread.

rick1027 · Jul 15, 2009, 09:59 PM // 21:59

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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

WALLS AND WALLS OF TEXT

So, from what I gather, this is pretty much another "Sins and Monks are bad for the game, nerf them please" thread, which is to soon be another in the bunch of previous threads we've had concerning this issue. We know Shadow Form is a serious problem that ANet continues to not address seriously, and we know that Monks have pretty much dominated PvE in both solo and team senses for a long time.

Shadow Form needs a nerf, nothing new there. Some Monk skills can certainly be toned down to make Monks less able in PvE, and for the better.

thanks for summoning it for me could get through the walls of text myself. i stared at it for a while but couldnt get into it and i agree that sf needs nerf and im assuming in the near future it will be. i think they are trying not to make it worthless and thats hard to decide how far they have to go. thing is neither of these skills the monks or asssassins are overpowered in the pvp scene as i can see it so really what harm are they doing except to the economy which many say is dead anyways

UnChosen · Jul 15, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's why I've been saying - for the longest time, both in this thread and others - that they should tone down the areas in Normal mode a bit in addition to balancing all these overpowered facets. The "OP stuffs" wouldn't be required if the areas weren't a pain in the ass for your average player. I also feel that PvE in general needs a whole reworking to make pugging less stressful, but mostly for another thread.

The thing is....do you think they're going to rework many areas in the game at this point? I doubt it. So many missions / explorables x 2 for HM = way too much work. Its by far simpler to just adjust the end game areas where most of the argument is based around in the first place. Whether or not pugs fail dungeons or grind through it in 3 hours with a perma doesn't really make that much of a difference compared to UWSC.

Burst Cancel · Jul 15, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

I've always been puzzled by Anet's push to make hard mode easier. Did anyone think to make Nightmare mode easier in Doom? How about DMD mode in Devil May Cry? 4D mode in Star Ocean 3? Ultra mode in Mushihime?

YunSooJin · Jul 15, 2009, 11:29 PM // 23:29

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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I've always been puzzled by Anet's push to make hard mode easier. Did anyone think to make Nightmare mode easier in Doom? How about DMD mode in Devil May Cry? 4D mode in Star Ocean 3? Ultra mode in Mushihime?

Been doing Hard Mode for so long it feels like Normal mode to me :P

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2009, 09:45 AM // 09:45

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Originally Posted by UnChosen

The thing is....do you think they're going to rework many areas in the game at this point?

Should it matter? If ANet wanted to keep a more deep and good game they would've done this. They didn't. They got lazy and just went "#*%@ it". A slew of terrible ideas that are now becoming a staple of many a player.

That's what you've just essentially helped me shown: all of what ANet has done is lazy, careless, and bad. Don't advocate for depthless, advocate for integrity. It would take quite a bit of work, yes, but that's what it takes to make a game good.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 16, 2009, 01:41 PM // 13:41

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Should it matter? If ANet wanted to keep a more deep and good game they would've done this. They didn't. They got lazy and just went "#*%@ it". A slew of terrible ideas that are now becoming a staple of many a player.

That's what you've just essentially helped me shown: all of what ANet has done is lazy, careless, and bad. Don't advocate for depthless, advocate for integrity. It would take quite a bit of work, yes, but that's what it takes to make a game good.

Perhaps that is what GW2 will be. Why invest time and money into a game that is 4 years old and a new replacement on the way?

EPO Bot · Jul 16, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Should it matter? If ANet wanted to keep a more deep and good game they would've done this. They didn't. They got lazy and just went "#*%@ it". A slew of terrible ideas that are now becoming a staple of many a player.

That's what you've just essentially helped me shown: all of what ANet has done is lazy, careless, and bad. Don't advocate for depthless, advocate for integrity. It would take quite a bit of work, yes, but that's what it takes to make a game good.

And people would still complain just as much. The game is fine, it's the players that make it bad because they chose to play boring builds.

Bryant Again · Jul 16, 2009, 03:15 PM // 15:15

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Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Perhaps that is what GW2 will be. Why invest time and money into a game that is 4 years old and a new replacement on the way?

Very, very likely. It's not just because of PvE, either: they've added way too much into PvP to ever go back. They've acknowledged that they've added too much as well.

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Originally Posted by EPO Bot

And people would still complain just as much. The game is fine, it's the players that make it bad because they chose to play boring builds.

I'd agree that it's players making it bad and complaining and offering terrible ideas. But it's ANet who's listening to them, and I don't think the players can be held fully accountable when the developer goes and removes massive amounts of depth from the game.

-Sonata- · Jul 16, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I'd agree that it's players making it bad and complaining and offering terrible ideas. But it's ANet who's listening to them, and I don't think the players can be held fully accountable when the developer goes and removes massive amounts of depth from the game.

Just to make an additional point:

If there's one thing that can be taken from this discussion, as well as similar discussions on related topics, is that perhaps Guild Wars has been a great foundation for a learning experience, not just from a players perspective, but from a developers perspective as well.

I know that many times in my life I've been told I have to learn to fail in order to learn how to succeed. It is my hope that GW2 learns from the successful points of our current game and improves on that. It is also my hope that they learn from the things that haven't worked and improve in those areas as well.

Of course, only time will tell. We can all debate for a long time as to the broken mechanics of this game, as well as many others. I think the more important question I ask myself is, will both sides of the equation learn from the success and lack there of in some areas in the future release of GW2? Again only time will tell, but I hope that's the case.